14C28N steel is as a result of a more corrosion resistant version of the 13C26 steel. D2 has been around for more than 20 years, an eternity in. A European powder-metal steel used in higher-end knives, Elmax has an advanced formula, and the result is a very good all-around steel, a generation ahead of formulations like 154CM. So setting edge geometry for the type of knife and intended use is very important. The steel falls under the Sandvik series of steels and makes one of the 7 steel grades in this family including 12C27M, 14C28N, 13C26, and others. [Complete Steel Guide], What is Vg-10 steel?- [Steel Knife Review], The Difference Between 440c steel vs d2: Compared guide, Is 8cr13mov Good Knife Steel [Complete Steel Guide], Amazon Best Sellers in Pocket Knives & Folding Knives. Hi Larrin Youve occasionally mentioned cryo treatment in your posts, including here with LC200N. The heat treatment techniques used by the manufacturer as well as the design of the blade itself play a huge role in the ultimate outcome of knife performance! It is certainly possible for a knifemaker or heat treating company to do a heat treatment that will have suboptimal properties. Bohler N690Co Stainless Steel: Is N690 a Good Knife Steel? - KnifeGuides This is especially important for chopping knives and for knives with thin edges for enhanced cutting ability and edge retention. Is there some way we might predict the relative "effective toughness" of different steels at different hardness and at different edge angles? and why would anyone want to use it when 420HC looks so much better for a simple stainless steel option. Therefore, you cannot purchase the knife for use in corrosive environments. 14c28n steel has a high Chromium and Carbon percentage. Most production knives are more than thick enough at the edge to accommodate a regrind to significantly improve performance, and its a lot cheaper than buying a new knife a lot of the time. Its very corrosion-resistant and quite tough. Some of our partners may process your data as a part of their legitimate business interest without asking for consent. Sandvik 14C28N Vs D2 Knife - edcTopic.com These steels are perfect for thin edges and high hardness. Kershaw, Spyderco and Schrade are among some of the popular users of this steel.. 14C28N. What it is: D2 is a carbon tool steel with a relatively high chromium content, prompting some to call it a "semi-stainless" steel. Generally seen as a slight upgrade to the 440C/VG-10/ATS-34 caliber of steel, its a decent all-around steel with good corrosion resistance, decent toughness, and only modest hardness. D2 steel does not contain enough chromium to make it stainless steel. While some are into that type of thing, if youre familiar with a specific steel and want to compare it with another, you should definitely click on that button below. Aluminum oxide is used in most common sharpening stones and it is softer than vanadium carbide, which makes sharpening high vanadium steels more difficult. We should be suspicious of anyone who is claiming very high edge retention with a steel at low hardness and a small amount of carbide. Dr. Thomas you spoke of using a different media for cutting test and I have some extra veg tan leather and was wondering what are the parameters of the leather you need? Theyll be fully attributed to you with website and Patreon links, obviously. I cant seem to match steel to the SS data points on the toughness/tcc graph. . 1095. Sandvik later came out with 14C28N which is a slightly improved version of 13C26. Often used for combat knives. I am particularly interested in researching knife steel, knife properties, and brands. And only Vanax and LC200N have been free from corrosion with a 3.5% saltwater solution, though MagnaCut was close. With conventional steels this limited vanadium additions to about 4-5%, and this was greatly expanded when powder metallurgy was developed. Note that corrosion is detrimental for the cutting edge. Read more. (I think the 420HC estimate in that post was based on simulation or computer modeling, since you didnt spray testing any of the 400 series.) The following are less common steels, but theyre definitely worth tracking down. Knife steel nerds have a great write up on 14c28n nik_was 2 yr. ago Now that is power planer blades, but the principle stands, less carbon and alloy isnt the best for wood working and Id use a steel like 26C3 (1.25% C .30%Cr) for my hand tools and temper them to around 62 hard and use the best angle for wood shaving, not the best angle for cutting rope. Here its 8. Because of its abrasion-eating hardness, knives with REX 121 come at an exceptionally high price. He is the mind and writer behind Knife Steel Nerds, the go-to source for all knowledge about knife steel. It's like the difference between average 420HC and Buck's 420HC with the Bos heat treatment, only from a better starting point. As wear resistance is increased the differences between conventional and powder metallurgy steels become greater. Even people that are aware of your work still do knife rankings and pass them off as steel rankings. So presumably, wear resistance would be in the 3.5-4 range and toughness in the 5.5-6 range. Read more. Later, it gets heated and compressed into one ingot. D2. https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/05/01/testing-the-edge-retention-of-48-knife-steels/, Unfortunately it all comes down to marketing on everybody involved: Industry, knifemakers, users. CRKT and Spyderco use BD1. 8am-5pm Saturday. Spyderco has produced several production knives with Maxamet, and the steel debuted on the ZT0888. I was wondering if the 14c28n sample was also prequenched like the AEB-L toughness samples? Generally this is code for difficulty in abrading away steel. It improves wear resistance and hardenability. Editors note: This article was first published in May 2015 and was most recently updated on May 25, 2020. Thanks again for everything you're doing, it's a tremendous resource. 1.4116 They tend to be relatively expensive and difficult to sharpen, as they have high wear resistance. But Ive found it lacking in hardness, even when compared to cheaper steels like AUS-8. Among Vancron SuperClean, Agomi #1 and Shirogami #1, Which one tends to have finer grain size and Sharper edge? I would also suggest adding a hardness rating to the ratings tables that currently include toughness, edge retention, and corrosion resistance ratings. If the steel is overheated in austenitizing, very large reductions in toughness are possible. The most significant cost increase comes from powder metallurgy, used to create most of the expensive knife steels. The ratings in this article rate ease of sharpening primarily based on wear resistance, but if a knife is difficult to sharpen, there may be other factors in play. For decades, different steels have been made to fit this category. This is good for ease in heat treating in large batches and for even cooling that greatly reduces warping and size changes. We use a subsize, unnotched chapy test with 2.5 x 10 x 55 mm dimensions. Type 8Cr, the more common formulation, is worse than AUS-8: a little more prone to corrosion and not quite as hard. But which? HAP40 Vanax gives up some toughness and hardness vs MagnaCut for saltwater levels of corrosion resistance. 1% saltwater will separate between other stainless steels. Its very tough and exceptionally corrosion-resistant. 14C28N is stainless steel, and its knives offer excellent rust resistance and toughness than D2 steel. One argument I see consistently leveled against 8Cr13MoV compared to AUS-8 is that of the consistency of the composition. 1060 LC200N has similar properties to those two but with saltwater levels of corrosion resistance. Thanks Larrin, The difference in properties between 14C28N and D2 steel is very clear. And before you start arguing on behalf of the steel you think might be perfect, let me remind you that if your knife isnt perfect for a task, youll need to get another one that is! LC200N has similar properties to those two but with saltwater levels of corrosion resistance. Goes to show that science not marketing or conjecture is what determines a good steel, 51shitty? Why wouldnt it be possible to make a damascus steel out of (say) AEB-L and s90V, or wouldnt that gain the best of both? There is one exception: Bucks 420HC (Buck and onlyBuck) is produced using a proprietary heat treatment. The both blade are equally wear resistant. The only thing putting me off immediately buying the p135 is the 14c28n steel. How could it be? Read our full Sobata 398 review here. This is an old high-carbon (non-stainless) steel. In a pocket knife the total amount of steel is rather small. D2 vs 8Cr13MoV Steel: Understanding The Differences And Which Is Better Steels without these attributes are much less costly. 14C28N steel is not very hard steel which makes it easier to sharpen. I measured corrosion resistance of a slightly lower carbon 420 here: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/03/02/cpm-spy27-experiments-toughness-corrosion-resistance-and-more/. Thats why it easy to work and looks nice. However, this edge retention comes at the cost of sharpening ease for D2. I mean the box cutter type, with the replaceable trapezoidal blades. Is it similar but worse or better at one of the 3 things? That provides 14% Chromium and offers excellent corrosion resistance. You do not expect the prices to be as low as those of low-end knives, but you will get high performance at affordable prices with either. Im looking forward to seeing if it does as well in full production. However, Kershaw asked Sandvik to make their 13C26 steel more resistant to corrosion, and the result was 14C28N. Do honing steels as used on kitchen knives actually do anything useful? Vanadium carbides are among the hardest that form in steel, and chromium carbides are in between iron carbide and vanadium carbide. ), intended use will give you all the answers. This is about comparing steels to each other rather than a limitation of an individual steel. Theres a green triangle at about RC 60.5 and toughness over 40. Instead, Vargo titanium uses a unique material called sintered titanium-ceramic alloy. Which one is right for you? 14c28n Steel Review - Knives & Gear In general, steels look worse as you go up in hardness because the toughness is reduced by more than the edge retention is increased. One such person is Dr. Larrin Thomas, a professional metallurgist raised by a knife maker and a giant knife nerd. The brand designed it as a carbide replacement. and yet millons of knives are being made out of 1.4116 (aisi 420mov?) https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/12/03/cryogenic-part1/ The table shows combinations of knife steel properties for different classes of steel. Each steel was tested with a knife that was produced just for the test, and then sharpened the same way for each test (15 dps 400 grit CBN sharpening). Youre right I had to check my spreadsheet. CPM 154 Hammering through hickory, digging at roots in sandy soil, and cutting around bone did nothing to chip, dent, or roll the edge of my 3V knives. Sandvik 14c28n Steel Review - KnifeUp Thanks to Bill Smutz, Alex Topfer, Florian Bachler, Brunhard, Art, Rod H, Sach, Jinny Koh, Jon Duda, Cory Henderson, and UPKnife for becoming Knife Steeel Nerds Patreon supporters! 1.4116 got a 2.5 for toughness and edge retention where as 420HC got a 9 for toughness and a 2.5 for edge retention. I also added a few more steels in this study. I just want to thank you for all the work you do for the community and the world at large. it seems like all the pieces are in place to develop an algorithm for this. Sandvik 14C28N Knife Steel Review: Is This a Good Knife? So you can estimate how much a change in hardness would affect edge retention by following the slope of those lines. They are usually chosen for their looks rather than performance. Are you looking for 14c28n steel with other steel? Hit like and all t. Have you tested K390 sufficiently to be able to rate it? With recommended hardness range of 55-62 HRC; the 14C28N is great for knife applications which place very high demands on edge sharpness, edge stability and corrosion resistance such as chefs knives, hunting knife, pocket knives and fishing knives. Tough steel can handle impacts without gross chipping or a tip breaking off. That old pine in particular is some crazy hard stuff. Each of these contributes to a knifes overall performance. The only thing putting me off immediately buying the p135 is the 14c28n steel. There are so many interactions between them that predictions are difficult without modeling software. Using controlled furnace heat treating resulted in toughness around 23-28 ft-lbs at 61-62 Rc, while the knifemaker heat treated specimens were 7 ft-lbs or below. This is a bit of a guess because I cant find un-notched Charpy data on it. 9Cr18MoV Steel: Full Details and Review - Bud Nealy Knife Maker The hardness of the carbides does not matter much unlike with edge retention. I know that one does not normally make knife blades of titanium, but I gather that Ti is extremely corrosion resistant, used for saltwater applications, etc. Thats a pretty large difference in two budget steels that are often compared to each other. Diamond and CBN stones make sharpening those steels easier. One important concept I want to hammer home is that there isnt one property that is most important. If you need something that soaks up abuse, try 3V. Here is the article by Larrin on 48 steels. But the true calling card of INFI is its insane toughness. I also have meat cleaver 1,4116 ,58RC that I order and was looking up if its a good steel or did waist money and need to return it. In reality hardly difference. So we get back to my original question: if a D2 planer blade at 58 Rc and the associated level of toughness will perform acceptably with a 30 sharpening angle, is there some way to extrapolate at what sharpening angle another steel with higher toughness might perform equally well? 1095 stains easily and thus is often coated, especially in fixed blades. I was guessing 5.5 based on your rating of CPM-154. 14C28N steel also has excellent wear resistance due to its high chromium content. 14c28n Steel Is Good for Knife? Here's The Best Review For - Milkwood There is buzz out there but I havent seen anything solid yet in the world of steel. I used to work for a company that did reclaimed old growth lumber (swamp cedar, old growth pine and oak beams, etc) and we went through planer blades twice as fast as the cabinetry shop next door (turns out the neighbors like it when you put all the loud businesses together and far away), which mostly cut fresh cherry, oak, maple, hickory etc. D2 has been around for more than 20 years, an eternity in metallurgy terms. I havent tested Sleipner yet. Coarse-carbide tool steel grades. For example, increasing edge retention from Z-Tuff to 3V (100 mm in the CATRA test) led to a drop in over 10 ft-lbs, a similar drop is seen by going from 3V to CPM-CruWear. Oftentimes steels that are reported to be difficult to sharpen are in fact improperly heat treated and challenging to deburr. Blue Super and 1.2562 have higher edge retention but relatively low toughness. Question. The D2 knife blade offers high edge retention and wear resistance. Tanto Its a costly and challenging process, but it makes extremely fine-grained steels, some of the best for knives, and makes some processes that were previously impossible a reality. 14c28n | Civivi The knife Natrix with substantial copper handle is a deceptively hefty EDC. What about K390? 2) you do not go into the sharpening in much detail. Most of these steels are carbon steels, except for CPM MagnaCut (the fancy steel cooked up specifically for knives by Dr. Thomas), which has excellent corrosion resistance. However, even steel with the best corrosion resistance can rust without proper care. its like with cars, most of them are not a corvette or a porsche. A2 knives need care taken to avoid rust and are often coated to inhibit corrosion. 1. It also tops out around 60-61 Rc like LC200N and needs relatively careful heat treating to even be that hard. European steel company Sandvik produces 14C28N, a non-powder metallurgy steel. While higher hardness does lead to improved edge retention the bigger reason to have higher hardness is for resisting edge deformation. On the other hand the professional performing blade steels sharpen to a razor edge and hold the edge for an extended use. I have a Winkler Knives Recon model in 5160 steel and even though the knife model is ok, the steel is shit. For the steels that I rated I give them a single rating rather than a range based on different heat treatments that can be performed. The ratings I have are for an optimal heat treatment. Why do knives make the best gifts? The steel comes with increased wear and abrasion resistance properties. However, the 14c28n provides perfect edge retention with a maximum hardness of 62Hrc and the mixture of Chromium and Carbon. 14C28N vs. D2. 14C28N steel is known to offer the highest toughness levels out there. Stainless steels usually top out around 64 Rc and may require careful heat treating to get there. Im going to give the ratings first and then give more explanation about how the ratings were created. The reason is because sharpening and edge geometry will also greatly control properties. 440B As such, the performance of the steel is entirely dependent upon the steels being utilized. The steel is susceptible to overheating during hardening do not overheat. Recommendations are welcome, If you are cutting against metal I would maybe try K390 in a Spyderco or an S110V knife if you need stainless. One is certainly anti-China bias, as you pointed out. I did a test with knives in 440A (stainless), D2 (high alloy steel with some corrosion resistance), and 1095 (no corrosion resistance). D2 steel is high carbon steel with no extra addition of Cr or Mo, that's why it is prone to corrosion. [Steel Knife Review], What is 14c28n steel? VG 10 Steel, https://knifebasics.com/author/freelancer/, How To Choose Between The 14C28N And The D2, 14c28n Steel Is Good for Knife? Nitro V is also significantly cheaper than many other steels with this level of performance. How long sharpen? The main downside is the steel is more difficult to heat treat and cant go harder than about 60 or perhaps 61 Rc. We did the research to help you find the best hunting knife for your needs and budget. These are Chinese-produced steels that recently started showing up in Chinese-made knives. 0.62% of Carbon: Makes knives harder and more resistant. Its very hard, tough, and corrosion-resistant. In that case the difficulty in sharpening would be the inverse of the edge retention rating. However, to choose the best knife for you must consider all the properties, including toughness, edge retention, corrosion resistance, and ease of sharpening. You need a hard medium to sharpen it like diamond or boride. You said wood is not a particularly abrasive material and in absolute terms that is very true. The biggest factor for cost of knife steel is whether it is produced with conventional ingot technology or powder metallurgy. I was recommended the Rat 1 in D2 and I also found that I really like the design of the Ruike p135 and p128. Thank you for putting this together, incredibly useful! There seem to be a lot of modern steels that get related to D2, but OTOH just saying a steel is similar to D2 seems to kill interest in it. Poor availability may effectively increase cost of steel. Therefore, ensure to wash and dry your knives after use to keep the rust away. On the flip side D2 steel is much harder than other steels in this category such as 154CM or ATS-34 and as a result holds its edge a little better. I am just grasping at straws here, but from the data you shared, it seems like toughness does increase faster than edge retention decreases: it is harder to get a very high edge retention knife that will still be somewhat tough compared to a very tough knife that will still hold an edge ok. Therefore you will use it for a long time without requiring frequent sharpening. I like it. REX 121 is a powder steel produced by Crucible. Im not hating on 80crv2 , Ive used it. 14c28n vs d2 : r/chineseknives - reddit Id like to quote some of your toughness, edge retention and corrosion resistance for balanced midfield steels, including yours, in some data tables. This refers to the angle of your edge and the thickness of the knife behind the edge. It shows 3 stainless steels from 750-800tcc but the edge retention graph only has 1 SS in that range, S90v. 14C28N is a type of high-performance stainless steel used in knife-making. Its exceedingly tough and relatively hard, but its not stainless. Both knives were chopped through a nail. imo o lot depends on how the blade is sharpened. Even metallurgists can have a difficult time estimating properties just based on the elements. Sorry, most of my previous comment was borderline word salad. And Mn and Si isnt shown at all for the high alloy steels, even though those elements are added to all of them. On the other hand, 9cr18mov has a slightly higher molybdenum content which gives it higher hardness from quenching and helps drive carbide formation. With a high level ofedge retention, corrosion resistance, and toughness, it does most everything quite well. Also D2 is not stainless as at least 5% of its chromium is tied up in carbides where it doesnt help prevent corrosion. The ultra high corrosion resistance steels Vanax or LC200N max out around 60-61 Rc instead. 14C28N VS D2 The two sheets of steel are comparable in terms of toughness and corrosion resistance. An example of data being processed may be a unique identifier stored in a cookie. So what is the best steel for knives? It also improves edge retention and strength. Finally, in this 14c28n vs d2, we hope you get the right one. Some of these steels also have vanadium (CruForgeV) or tungsten (Blue Super, V-Toku2, 1.2519) for increased wear resistance. I have not provided a rating for ease in sharpening. Though the volume of carbonitrides in the steel is relatively high. 52100 Note:Dont bother with anything less than 8Cr in this series. Jeff I worked at a company that heat treated D2 (1.55% C) planer blades for a company that built wood working equipment for commercial shops. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. However, it is not really known how many different companies are making 8Cr13MoV (or at least I dont know), it could be that it is one manufacturer that is dominating the market. Heres The Best Review For You (2021), D2 knife blade offers high edge retention, Dulls faster, Requires frequent sharpening. Also, what kind of steel is used for utility knives? document.getElementById( "ak_js" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Enter your email address to subscribe to this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. Everything you need to know to buy the right knife for the job. The best knife for you should meet your needs and fit your budget. I made most of my leather knives from O1v (O1 with .20V) that I hold at 1475 for 15 mins and quench in 120-130 F AAA oil and Kevin Cashen is where those parameters came from btw. That is an air-hardening- high carbon, high chromium tool steel. Because of its difficulty in sharpening and machining, its very rarely used and comes with a high price premium. The best scenario is when the steel, heat treatment, and geometry are selected for the knife and the use. Very acute edges are more brittle but remain sharp for longer and cut very well. The knives can be used in humid and wet environments without rusting. The brand Bark River uses A2 in many models. But I think it would have much higher toughness than any of the steels on the chart. No idea. . Ive found that most makers harden S30V too much, making it prone to chipping at the edge. D2 steel, on the other hand, is tool steel, and its knives shine on edge retention and wear resistance. Is this at the same hardness? This is a major tradeoff between improved cutting ability and edge retention with an acute angle vs a strong and chip resistant edge with an obtuse angle. After the steel is quenched it is reheated to a lower temperature to increase toughness and decrease hardness. Therefore I will be showing the ratings of the steels graphically in terms of toughness-edge retention balance, where steels that are high and to the right have the best combination, and you choose the steel based on the level of toughness or edge retention necessary for the knife.